SPEAKER_00: 0:23

Today we have on the show Mr. Ryan Shinn. He is the marketing director for Cinemark Western Group. They are one of the largest commercial and industrial roofing companies, roofing and flooring contractors in North America. Welcome, Ryan. How are you?

SPEAKER_02: 0:40

I'm great. How are you?

SPEAKER_00: 0:42

Thank you for joining us today. Happy to be here. I'm so excited to actually just kind of talk with you about how you came to be. Did you, from a little boy, knew you were coming into marketing and you were going to be this commercial, just all in the mix with the marketing and sales and the digital aspect of the world?

SPEAKER_02: 1:01

No. So it started in col my basic resume, if you will. Started in college. Um and I was always involved in business management.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14

Um I started uh at a low level just as an employee in the beginning of college with Sears, actually. Wow. I ended up through college working in upper store and then district management with them. And I came to uh do several business management roles, but um was always involved in marketing uh for for different companies and stuff, and it I always had a mind um towards marketing, right? Wow. And so um so I've I've run some marketing campaigns for some larger companies and but I've been with CentaMark for 13 years now.

SPEAKER_00: 1:54

So Centimark Western Group, correct? Yeah. Great. So um how long have you been with them for how many years you said?

SPEAKER_02: 2:02

Well, this January it will be 13 years.

SPEAKER_00: 2:04

Wow. And uh and can you tell us more about what you do at Santa Mark Western Group and and kind of how you've led your team in the past few years?

SPEAKER_02: 2:14

Absolutely. So um uh in Santa Mark, we we build roofs and floors for large commercial industrial buildings, sometimes as small as a Starbucks, for instance, but Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 2:28

As small as a Starbucks. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 2:30

But we don't do houses. It's not a residential roofing and flooring contract. Um so I do everything from leading telemarketing um to organizations, um uh trade shows. Um Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 2:47

So um kind of give us a little breath of um what you guys' initial focus was when you came into the company and kind of how you've grown since then. Can you tell us a little more about that?

SPEAKER_02: 2:58

Yeah, so initially back then, um, there was a big focus on the telemarketing end of things.

SPEAKER_00: 3:06

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02: 3:06

And the other groups in Santa Mark uh focus their marketing or had focused anyways on that. Um but when I was brought in, my my group director, Steve, uh he was very clear that he didn't want someone just to solely focus on the telemarketing end of things.

SPEAKER_01: 3:28

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 3:29

He wanted someone with a more holistic approach. And I've always tried to do that. I have a uh someone who uh who's actually in charge of the the telemarketing end of things, uh Aliyah. And we when you think when you say telemarketing, you think of like people at a phone making. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 3:48

I think it kind of makes everybody initially cringe because there's been so much of it, right? But back then it wasn't as prominent as it's come to be, it seems like.

SPEAKER_02: 3:57

Yeah, and what we do for the most part, like most of my staff, uh the stateside is part of it anyways, um, doesn't do like call people at their dinner tables and ask if they want to change long distance services if you want to park you back to the 90s, right?

SPEAKER_00: 4:16

So with health phones, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 4:19

The long curly cord. No. Um no, they're talking with targeted uh contractors and our national accounts programs, is that is big, and we um we work within that, um, but they're all targeted companies and targeted roles there. And we're talking with facility managers or or um uh operations managers at their office and their desk, right? Wow, okay. So yeah, it's not like making lots of phone calls.

SPEAKER_00: 4:51

Right. Maybe we just need to change the title of that department. Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 4:55

I I've always I've always wanted that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 4:57

So you seem like kind of an innovator. You you you like to coach and help produce whether it comes to marketing or kind of anything in general, right? So tell us a little bit more about you're very driven. You you said before previously that you're very mission-driven. Can you tell us a little bit about what your mission and values are and how that leads you in?

SPEAKER_02: 5:19

Absolutely. So for work, I I think that's something that's kind of missed in a lot of I think companies as a whole get it, but um interdepartmentally that it's easily missed. Um so for me, the mission is overarching. Like, why am I here?

SPEAKER_00: 5:41

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 5:41

So um then the vision is how you're going to accomplish the mission in a spur certain time period, right? From that programs develop and and each program has a goal, and they have to business speak the smart goals, right? Right. Um, so every year, like we have our mission statement on the wall along with our vision and our programs and our goals. And every year, in actually we do it in February in my department, we have a big um day where we talk about how last year performed and how we met our goals or didn't. And then we talk about the vision for the upcoming year and everything that drives downstream of that. And my people really take ownership of their part of that, and I highly reward that.

SPEAKER_00: 6:31

Oh, that's wonderful.

SPEAKER_02: 6:32

It's a good time, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 6:33

Yeah, I feel like we a lot more industries and companies are kind of coming into that culture more, but what what really made you want to focus on those mission and values? Is was it your experience in corporate America? You saw a lot of companies not focusing on the company and the culture, and and how did you realign yourself to make sure that you worked and and helped a company like Cinemark?

SPEAKER_02: 6:57

Well, um it it actually comes from my experience uh in as as in faith. Um and and my everything derives your values it's the foundation. Uh but um I realize that like in any job, you have nine hours a day that you spend with these people. And you can have that time be just like cut and dried in in your box business, like clock in, do your task, and then clock out and go home.

SPEAKER_00: 7:32

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 7:33

Um, but that kind of sucks.

SPEAKER_00: 7:36

I love the way you but the to be frank with everyone, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 7:39

Yeah, it it does, it does. And and so I would rather have my my team work passionately for a goal, right? And their goal can't be just in space, it has to derive from the mission, right? And so um uh we have a mission and each team member uh owns their slice of the pie there.

SPEAKER_00: 8:08

Interesting. And and has that culture and that impact that you brought into your team has that helped the company as a whole youth feel, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_02: 8:16

Well, yeah. Uh so I I looked at the numbers the other day, actually. And um so it's hard to measure what we've done before 2016 because we switched um to a CRM system and and that measures everything since 2016. Our old numbers aren't are are gone. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 8:35

I'm sure a lot of people had that transition issue for CRM.

SPEAKER_02: 8:38

Sure, absolutely. Um so but tw since 2016, my team has created opportunities that have resulted in$170 million in revenue. Now there's other things that we we're we just lost in space, like like um there's other things derived from that. So it could be in multiples of that, but uh provable is$170 million, which is over$80,000 per day worked for my team.

SPEAKER_00: 9:08

That is incredible.

SPEAKER_02: 9:09

So uh yeah, I I can see that it did derive a lot of value.

SPEAKER_00: 9:15

Right. That is that is enormous, and and like I said, I think a lot of companies are trying to shift to that culture. But for a lot of our viewers, they're business owners, small business, large business, and it's hard on your level to to trickle that down, it seems like. So what what drives you to continue to want to grow the mission and the values within your team?

SPEAKER_02: 9:39

So for me, it all comes down to people and relationships, really. Like I I love the industry I'm in in that a business is in a building. And if like let's say there's expensive equipment in their warehouse and the roof leaks, then their equipment can get ruined.

SPEAKER_01: 10:01

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 10:02

And so they need a solution for that. And that's what my company does, and does it very well, actually. Um and uh downstream, there are people in my company who put those roofs on or do those repairs.

SPEAKER_00: 10:20

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 10:20

And they have children, and their children need shoes, they need food, they they need Christmas presents.

SPEAKER_00: 10:28

Yes, I think they do.

SPEAKER_02: 10:29

And there are salespeople whose jobs depend on them meeting their goal. And where I can't sell for them, I can help them to partner their goals with business, with with marketing strategies that meet those business goals. And so, and you know, keep going downstream to my my team members. They they have a job, they have children who need food too.

SPEAKER_01: 10:55

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 10:56

So um we're like I look at it as as helping those relationships all along, from the customer to the salesperson to the marketing team, like we're all working for good.

SPEAKER_00: 11:11

You're aligned, right? So, and it seems like your team responds very well to to however you're developing them. Obviously, your success speaks for itself. So tell me more about um kind of what what you've done to help. You've done small Zarbucks, right? And you all the way up to huge corporations. So, how do you tailor your marketing with such a wide range? How how do you do that in a director of marketing role with such a a large company?

SPEAKER_02: 11:41

So, so well let me be clear on something. I'm not saying that we have a corporate relationship with Starbucks. I'm just throwing that out there because everybody knows the size of a Starbucks, but that size of building, right? So um typically in the commercial or industrial sphere, um, a small building will be managed by a like a regional facilities director who have a portfolio of buildings that they manage. And so typically we'll work with them, but let's say there is a small build a small company in a building owner and they need a solution, um, we can do that. Now we are positioned as a company. I I tell customers sometimes we're not like a Chevy Malibu, we're more like a BMW 5 series. Like we focus on our quality and our our ubiquity more than anything else.

SPEAKER_00: 12:48

That's the front focus of the the company.

SPEAKER_02: 12:51

So so as a solution for a cash strapped small business, we're not necessarily the the best solution for them.

SPEAKER_00: 13:04

Right. You need to know your demographic, right? Um you you're specific within the larger commercial space, you said?

SPEAKER_02: 13:11

Yeah. And uh so you asked earlier about like uh like advice to other entrepreneurs in that. Absolutely. But I would say first we were talking about the the um the the family atmosphere and the mission driven, right? As a as a any company should really focus on what their mission is and how they're creating that alignment between their customer and their their solution, right? If if if they're for instance, if they provide if they're a plumber, right? They they don't want to work, they don't want to convince a homeowner that they need plumbing work because that's not fun. And a customer doesn't just don't wake up in the morning and go, I want to get a plumber in.

SPEAKER_00: 13:58

Yeah, I want to fix my toilet today or my training.

SPEAKER_02: 14:01

So they they need to figure out that alignment. And that might be easy in the case of a plumber. You're a plumber, you need you need to align with people who need plumbing, right? Um so but the the next step that we were getting at was the the customer value proposition. Yes. Why you? Um what what separates you? Yeah, yeah. Why should a customer choose you? And um uh unfortunately, a small business sometimes has a feeling of desperation, like we just need c more clients, right? And so they tend to forget that because they're they're just scraping and trying to survive.

SPEAKER_00: 14:46

Right. I'm taking one step at a time every day, right?

SPEAKER_02: 14:48

I think that's uh that's a trap that people fall into easily. Um that they they need to stay focused on their target targeted market. They they need they need customers who value the value that they bring. And they they need to keep that aligned.

SPEAKER_00: 15:11

Absolutely. But um, if they don't keep that in line, I feel like uh uh like you to your point, a lot of business owners are running in circles. You get caught in that kind of route race. So how do you do you feel like delegation to your team um and trust with your team is is a high focus for you?

SPEAKER_02: 15:28

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Uh so I am not a micromanager. I like uh that that hurts me. If I if I'm I I tell new people and uh like when I bring them in, if I'm standing over your shoulder and micromanaging you, that's a big sign that you need to listen because I'm gonna get tired of that really fast.

SPEAKER_00: 15:51

Right. You have enough to think about, right? That's why you put certain people in place. Right, right. So how do you go about finding those um specific personalities?

SPEAKER_02: 16:02

So I would say that, well, first of all, it it it starts with me and me knowing my strengths and weaknesses, right? I know that I'm I often say I'm more of a forest person. I like to look at the map and and chart out the course forward and look at where we are generally, but I don't want to focus on individual trees. And I one can either get better at that if that's necessary, or bring in people who are really good at that. And I am very fortunate to have the best employee that I've ever had.

SPEAKER_01: 16:40

Wow, Leah.

SPEAKER_02: 16:42

And she's sh she'll say like she likes to look at the trees, and she's really good at that. Uh-huh. And so um I can pass off kind of that detailed stuff to her, and she can handle that with a plum. And um and we together, being that we have different folk folk eye, naturally, right? Yeah, we can bring on people that that fit that role and just knowing the the culture of a successful or the the cultural mix of a successful person in that role. Um, but that is difficult. So uh like I I have a whole list in my head of people I've I've brought in that just haven't fit.

SPEAKER_00: 17:26

Right, right. But Aaliyah, she she has been with you almost since you've been with Cinemark, hasn't she?

SPEAKER_02: 17:32

More than that. Actually, she's the only person on our staff that I didn't hire. She pre-exists me. She just had her 15-year anniversary.

SPEAKER_00: 17:42

Congratulations, Aaliyah. Great shout-out on that. So you really are proud of the team that you've kind of put together and what you do each and every day. So I want to circle back to a little bit. We kind of brushed over it. What does separate Santa Mark from the rest?

SPEAKER_02: 17:59

Well, to do the elevator pitch of it. Right. So Santa Mark, first of all, um, generally a roofing contractor in North America is going to the let's say they give a 20-year warranty on a roof, right? That's typically between one and three years installation. The rest of the warranty is the you have to go to the manufacturer of the product. Okay, okay. Santa Mark, if we give a 20-year warranty, it's a single sourced warranty. So if it leaks in year 19, call us.

SPEAKER_01: 18:34

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02: 18:35

And we will not send you back to Versico or GAF or whoever. Um, we'll handle it ourselves. We have a completely separate division that handles that that warranty service.

SPEAKER_00: 18:47

Wow. So it's more a white glove service, very, very specific to each and every customer, it seems like.

SPEAKER_02: 18:52

So that's one thing. The other thing is our size, right? So we're we're all across North America in Canada. Um we have over, I think we're at 110 ish offices in North America right now. My goodness. And they're not franchises. Um, we don't buy up smaller companies. Um, it's all organic growth. And they're all fully trained uh Santa Mark employees and with with crews in the different offices. Um so we're not gonna fly somebody out from Florida to look at your your roof in a different market, right? You have you get the best of both worlds. You get the local team who lives and works and raises their kids right there in the community. Um, and you also get the size and and scope of a giant corporation.

SPEAKER_00: 19:48

Wow, the quality of that that big corporation.

SPEAKER_02: 19:51

So generally in North America, a a roofer is what I call two chucks and a truck, right? Um they've got a ladder. They have some rolls of of thermal plastic polyolefin TPO. And so they're probably gonna be out of business in two years. I mean, statistically. And so they they like that dominates the North American market, believe it or not. Really? Yeah. And so um so we're we we were founded in 1968. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00: 20:29

So the company as a whole has been here for quite a while.

SPEAKER_02: 20:31

Yeah, and so if we give a like if if it's two chucks and a truck roofing and they give you a 20-year warranty, if they're not around in 20 years, it it doesn't matter anyways, right?

SPEAKER_01: 20:41

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 20:42

So a customer will know that we're gonna be around in 20 years. And also a customer that has um an outlet in Michigan and Florida and California has one company they can call with an office near all of those places.

SPEAKER_00: 20:58

Well, so you guys make sure to embed yourselves in each and every community that you're involved with.

SPEAKER_02: 21:03

Yeah, well, so I can't say that we have an office in every community at all. Right. But we have an office near every community. Absolutely. So within reach. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 21:17

Do you feel that's very important for you and your company? You guys have what, two, three offices in each state generally?

SPEAKER_02: 21:24

I I won't say a number because it doesn't work in that way, right? You've got certain states that have vast tracts of land and not a lot of people, and you have other states that have a lot of people and not as much empty space. Like so in here in Texas, we have our uh just on the roofing side, we have our our DFW office, we have uh an office in San Antonio, we have a an office in Houston, uh, and we have an office in El Paso.

SPEAKER_00: 21:59

Wow, and your home base is here in Texas, correct?

SPEAKER_02: 22:02

No, our our company headquarters is actually in uh it's near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

SPEAKER_00: 22:08

Okay, I got you. But you you are focused on this market, but your market is a lot larger than Texas, right?

SPEAKER_02: 22:15

Yeah. Maybe you focus on the Me personally, I'm in the Western group.

SPEAKER_00: 22:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 22:19

And and basically to make it really simple, if you folded the US map in half, everything to the left of that is the West.

SPEAKER_00: 22:28

See, that is a very, very large area for the companies that are kind of on that build launch growth scale methodology is how we think, that are on that launch and scale phase that are growing like you are, and having to manage so many different areas. Your company has also obviously done it very well. Your group, your Western group has. So what system do you feel like you put in place to make that successful? And how do you manage those systems across such a wide range?

SPEAKER_02: 22:58

Sure. Well, internally, um, I look at my goal it is really meeting with on the phone or on the internet or even in person, meeting with all the the sales staff through that entire territory and and helping them to meet their business goals by implementing sound marketing strategies. I I was listening recently to uh there's a marketing guru out of the UK, his name is Rory Sutherland, and he was answering marketing questions from the internet on this video. And he said the he said the biggest misconception in marketing is that marketing is a cost. It's not. Marketing is a way of avoiding an opportunity cost.

SPEAKER_00: 23:48

What's an opportunity cost in your definition?

SPEAKER_02: 23:50

So look at it this way. If you're let let's let's let's take away Centimark out of the equation. Let's say you're a small uh single person plumbing outfit.

unknown: 24:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_02: 24:02

And you'll do fifty thousand dollars in revenue this year.

SPEAKER_00: 24:09

Okay, very small.

SPEAKER_02: 24:10

Yeah. But if you used sound marketing principles, maybe you would be able to clear$100,000 in revenue.

SPEAKER_00: 24:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 24:23

As long as you've spent then less than$50,000 on those sound marketing uh uh processes, then you've actually uh you've made money in the game, right? So um I would not suggest for for them to invest, like don't don't throw money into the wind, right? But use sound marketing principles. And and back to Santa Mark, that's what I what what my role is in working with the the sales staff across the West to implement sound marketing principles so that they can meet their own business goals.

SPEAKER_00: 25:05

Right. You you actually mentioned that you encourage your team to you know do a to take over, to take ownership, right? So you encourage your team to TO, which is take ownership, you mentioned. How do you create a culture where people feel safe to take risks underneath you?

SPEAKER_02: 25:22

So, first of all, you have to reward that. Um you you have to look for that behavior and it's it not to say my team members are dogs because they're not, but if your dog is if you're teaching your dog to sit, you have to reward them doing it correctly, right? Right, not punish them, right? Yeah. And so the and and you have to you have to be intentional about that, right? So that's kind of step one. And and my my people are gonna get mad that I compared them to dogs and I'm I'm clearly.

SPEAKER_00: 25:56

Or not, just on a kind of a lizard brain holistic.

SPEAKER_02: 26:00

Yeah, but but second of all, um I in my head, um I don't want to hire somebody who just sits and stares at their screen because I didn't tell them specifically what to do. So sometimes I'll have an employee who says, Well, I just thought that this would be a good idea. And maybe sometimes I'm like, Well, I don't know if I would have done that. But I'm still happy that you did something.

SPEAKER_00: 26:32

Right, kind of w walked out of the box a little bit.

SPEAKER_02: 26:35

Yeah. And so um they they know that I value that. I also have like stupid incentives, like I'll all I have these red chips that we give out, and they they can at the end of the month they can use that for they can they can win some prizes, right? Right. So I just kind of I do that too.

SPEAKER_00: 26:55

Breaks up the monotony of coming to work for nine hours every day. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 27:00

And I don't want to do too much that's stupid that belittles them um because nobody wants to be treated like that. So I I really believe strongly in uh treating people like adults and expecting them to act that way.

SPEAKER_00: 27:15

Right. You even kind of mentioned you honestly get a little upset when they don't try, right?

SPEAKER_02: 27:21

Yeah, that that that that hurts the whole team, is what it does. It's it's like the the rising tide raises all ships, right? I love that. At the same time, a team member who's not pulling their weight makes everybody else work harder and in not the direction they they want to go. They have to veer off to make up for that. Like think of a a team of horses and one horse is lagging, and so it's pulling the the horses maybe to the left. So the other horses have to walk a little bit to the right to keep that momentum going, and it works that way in business too. If you've got some side not pulling its weight, then it it kind of hurts downstream everybody.

SPEAKER_00: 28:02

So absolutely. So uh you you actually kind of mentioned to within that realm of what we're already talking about, that insecure leaders steal credit. Can you expand on that? You want your people to outshine you, you mentioned. Why is that and how how does that belief shape kind of leadership and legacy for you? So um insecure leaders steal credit.

SPEAKER_02: 28:26

Yeah. So for uh we we have a big sales meeting. Um last year it was in in Phoenix. Okay. And um I I do a contest each year, the best marketer. We have a series of metrics that that measures them. The best marketer gets to go to that trip along with me and and all the sales staff in in the West.

SPEAKER_01: 28:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 28:50

Um and last year it was one of my employees, Kimberly. Oh, and she comes up and they give her an award, and the whole sales staff gives her a standing ovation.

SPEAKER_01: 29:02

Wow.

SPEAKER_02: 29:03

And I just I love that. And like that's my team member. And she has uh done her best to take ownership and and and create success, right? Right. And uh it's not about me, right? Uh of course I lead the team, but their success is my success. And um I I think an insecure person it really stems from insecurity. Like people want to be validated, and there's a big um that that um that sense of of not measuring up that uh insecurity.

SPEAKER_00: 29:45

What what's the it it uh you've developed the insecurity with because of it's almost of an inferiority complex. You don't want to be seen inferior.

SPEAKER_02: 29:54

So everybody has that sense of like if everybody actually knew how unqualified I was, they would all laugh at me, right? I tend to not have that. I I tend to veer toward the polar opposite. I'm like overconfident and I'm I'm like ready, fire, aim, right.

SPEAKER_00: 30:15

So you recognize that distinction between the two.

SPEAKER_02: 30:17

Yeah, yeah. So um that so uh a leader who steals credit um often has that in the back of their mind. They're like, well, that's a great idea. So my boss is gonna say, that's a great idea. Why didn't you think of that? Right.

SPEAKER_00: 30:35

So they have to take on so they take it on, right?

SPEAKER_02: 30:38

But the the real problem is all their people are like, if I come up with a good idea and I share it, then he's gonna say it's his. Oh yeah. That's that's endemic across many organizations, right?

SPEAKER_03: 30:56

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02: 30:57

I think that's a um a dead end road though, because what happens is you stifle innovation. Um you kill that sense of taking ownership. Um because uh if you're doing the opposite, you've got the strength of your entire team coming up with ideas. And you can give success where it's due, and then they'll want to come up with more ideas.

SPEAKER_00: 31:25

And what's the counter to that? I I I truly believe that well, I I know for a fact, statistically, 97% of businesses don't make it past the first five years. Would you say that mentality has a lot to do with maybe why 97% of businesses don't make it?

SPEAKER_02: 31:43

I I think it's it's definitely part of it. Uh I think that that statistic, um, you're gonna have a lot of businesses start with a sole proprietorship or a few staff, right? And so that that falls less into less of that category because they're not enough people to make a team, right? Right. Um as you're as you uh grow that that comes into play more and more. Okay, go ahead. And so you have to start out though with that that mindset of of taking ownership, and I would say for a smaller outfit, networking and giving I I I think for for that size, people mess up the idea of networking. And I see that in marketing so much, but I think it's it's it's swinging the other way.

SPEAKER_00: 32:45

The pendulum's swinging. So let me touch on that because I think you kind of skimmed over something I want I want people to really hear from you. The very first part of what you said, um what you just mentioned, can you kind of elaborate on that and the sense that Okay, you mentioned that leaders kind of struggle with letting go of control and trusting their teams. What advice would you give leaders or entrepreneurs that are just starting out, or maybe in the middle of their build phase, right? Because we have the build launch grow scale methodology. When you're in that build phase, what advice would you give leaders who do struggle with control, who who do you do see kind of on that path of destruction with their teams? What advice would you give to help them?

SPEAKER_02: 33:34

So in the build phase, um, first of all, I would go back to mission and vision and goals. You have to have that clearly set. Uh yeah. Look at networking, because that's that's gonna be your team, right? You want outside people to work for your your vision and and your mission. Absolutely. But that means that you need to work for their mission and their vision, and then they're going to want to mute help you because you're mutually helping each other as well.

SPEAKER_00: 34:07

Absolutely, mutually beneficial.

SPEAKER_02: 34:08

Yeah. So uh I was in um Idaho. No, I was in Spokane, and um uh a salesperson from uh Boise was with me. That's the Idaho connection.

SPEAKER_00: 34:22

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 34:23

A potential customer walked up. Okay, and uh they started a conversation. And the customer was like, Well, I don't have any commercial roofing needs right now. But as they talked, he said, What I really need is a I don't remember, but let's say plumber.

SPEAKER_00: 34:45

Like I've got plumbing issues, something that your company did not manage at the time, right?

SPEAKER_02: 34:50

And the salesperson went, you know, I know this guy, he's not with our company at all, but he's just a client of mine and he's a really good plumber. I trust him. Let me give you his number. And he did that, and the the potential customer like wrote it down and walked away. And in my head, I'm I'm like, wow, that was that was really good networking there. Because what's gonna happen is that guy's gonna get his plumbing situation fixed. But someday he's gonna need a roof, and he's gonna remember the guy who gave him that plumber's information, even though he wasn't getting business out of it. There was no benefit, right? And the plumber, right. Well, there there is, but the it's in in building community and building those those those spiderweb connections, right? The plumber is gonna be like, wow, you sent me a client, and he's gonna remember when he needs roofing work that as well, right?

SPEAKER_00: 35:59

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 35:59

You you took the opportunity to to be a resource with yeah, but not only that, but both of them are gonna tell them their friends about the guy that helps them and you they're gonna need roofing.

SPEAKER_00: 36:12

Right, from people they know, like, and trust, right? Right. I will definitely go with somebody that my friend that I trust has referred me to. I would say that's 97% of my business is the relationship. I I can't stand the word sales or even marketing now anymore. Because if you truly value a customer and they value what you have to offer, you're creating a relationship. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_02: 36:36

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And uh so we were talking about the pendulum swing. Like it it has been so so uh back to telemarketing, right? What ruined that industry is all of the incessant robocalls. I don't know about you, but I don't answer my phone anymore if I don't recognize.

SPEAKER_00: 36:55

You actually called me this morning and I didn't have you saved, and I did not answer that number.

SPEAKER_02: 37:00

I was offering a Starbucks, which is not working.

SPEAKER_00: 37:04

Is that insane that our culture is like that now?

SPEAKER_02: 37:07

So, but but the same thing has happened with I I I don't know about you on this also, but I get constant emails in my inbox. Do you have a quick 15 minutes for me to tell you about the thing I want to sell you? And the answer is no, because I have a job to do, right? Exactly. Um but it like the pendulum has swung or is swinging back, maybe, in a lot of businesses realizing that they can't do business that way. They the way to get into somebody's inbox is to offer them value. And then they will respond nicely and earn your right to talk about that thing you want to sell to them.

SPEAKER_00: 37:53

Right. Kind of our interaction. Um, we interacted through LinkedIn, right? My CEO and I are both on LinkedIn, kind of reaching out to our business owners that we really feel can add value to our show, right? You I was solving not a problem, but a need that you feel like would benefit you at the end of the day, right? It's kind of touching on what you just said is you have to either solve a problem or benefit because you get so many emails every day. So how how has that migration with being in marketing and sales, by the way? Two different things I would like to make very clear for some of our business owners, very, very different. In your experience through your marketing director position here at Cinemark, as AI tends to kind of come into play. We used to do telemarketing, right? And then everybody gets sick of the robocalls at dinner, like you mentioned. And now AI is coming into play, which is why we have all the emails coming into our inbox. How do you keep up with the times when it comes to marketing? How do you know how to maneuver out of telemarketing and into automation?

SPEAKER_02: 38:57

Yeah, so and like the a lot is being said about AI, right? And you've got your people who are on the end of like it's gonna solve all of our problems. We're gonna be in some Star Trek utopia where nobody has to work ever. Right. And then there's the other side, people like I'm a Luddite, I don't don't want AI is gonna kill us all, we're gonna end up in Terminator Land.

SPEAKER_00: 39:24

And what's your opinion?

SPEAKER_02: 39:26

I'm uh I like to say I'm agnostic about it. I don't like my opinion is not gonna affect whether AI happens or not. I'm not Elon Musk or one of those thought leaders on the subject, right? What I do know is that AI is. It's here. My success as a marketer will be determined in the near future, even by my ability to navigate and use this tool to the best of my abilities. So to your audience um and and like a a s uh a uh uh what'd you say the um build build in the building build launch ground launch ground so and the build launch and even grow and scale actually all of it um phase if you're a small business you can use ai tools uh to achieve things that uh a year ago five years ago wasn't even possible within the year yeah took you a whole 12 months to complete right right so like like I'm a I'm a Photoshop guy I've well years back I won Photoshop contests and like I was really into it but yeah back then like well uh now Photoshop has an AI feature is one of the first to do like AI image generation things in Photoshop so I I played around with it and um because I not to have fun although I it was fun you enjoyed it to figure out yeah to figure out what it would do um as a tool and I produced a few things and I was talking uh at work actually um with with somebody on my team and I said you know this is doing better what used to take me a week to do on my own in Photoshop and AI is like that across the board um so now I'm where it definitely will be detrimental is it will do to our inboxes it already has done to our inboxes what the robocalls did to our cell phones. Yep. So uh effective communication is gonna be more um human yeah yeah more yeah like like sitting in front of people. Absolutely more uh analog and less digital if you will uh the the personal one-non one interaction yeah I'm not I'm not actually saying don't use digital means I'm saying that that like the what what analog is to digital the the you know fire quick gen generic email is to a personal email with with real connection really sitting in front of somebody etc like like um you know how when you open letters in the from the mail like a lot of places are using that that handwriting font yes and you kind of run your fingers over it to feel if it's actual writing you can tell yeah but if you actually get a handwritten letter you pay attention to that more which is why they're using that font right so how do you integrate that into your processes at Cinemark with your team when AI are you utilizing it within your company for that marketing and that advertising or do you feel like you kind of produce more quality interactions and that's why you've grown as well. So so I can't it's kind of proprietary how we're using AI but we are um however um a good example in a conversation I was having just this week and last week uh we we have developed a a specific uh marketing role in the the regional offices in person and they're actually sending off snail mail introductory packets and we're calling behind that just to set up sit down right those touch points right and that's actually having a a real effect and I've noticed when we deliver hand deliver a just an introductory packet if there's like a little handwritten note on the front cover it gets a lot more play than just you know something I have a an option for them to put in a company logo of the company that they're delivering to and I'm like I I don't personally advocate doing that because they know what company they're with it's not impressive.

SPEAKER_00: 44:24

Right it's that what is impressive is is the handwriting yeah yes putting that I I think to your point people are valuing that with AI and our emails just blowing up if I get a letter or a thank you card even that's handwritten, I will place it on my wall because I know that person took that extra step, that quality and took the extra focus in me and that does create value. So now I wonder how and and I ask different business owners this and different C-suite executives like yourself how how it's affected you. Are we using it as a crutch or are we using it as a benefit to our company as a whole? Because I feel like some small business owners maybe use it as a way to educate themselves versus utilizing their process with the AI to help grow themselves.

SPEAKER_02: 45:12

Would what's your so you can and should use AI tools for marketing number one. Okay. The more boilerplate the the more spammy the the worse um that that personal interaction is is always very key but don't miss the fact that there are great amazing tools to get you in front of the customer. What a a good example of that that uh in conversations that I've had I'll have people say well we want to appear really high on a Google search result right yeah those are my favorite and yeah where are we on Google?

SPEAKER_00: 45:55

Yes that's the first question but it is important.

SPEAKER_02: 45:58

But yeah but so um the the Google result might be how they find you to have that conversation in the first place and if they don't find you it's like the old like AAA plumbing because they want it to appear early alphabetical order yellow pages, right? So yeah so um and of course it doesn't work that way anymore. But um so if you see an AAA plumber you know they've been around a long time or they're really really behind the curve.

SPEAKER_00: 46:28

Which can add a little credit guys.

SPEAKER_02: 46:30

So um but um I I will say you you can't have that personal interaction that analog interaction if you will unless they find you in the first place and AI is a great tool to get you visible.

SPEAKER_00: 46:49

Right and then to deliver what you have. Yeah it's kind of that bridge um with the cold calling and the telemarketing you're really the brand awareness letting them know that you're there having that personal interaction is really where you grow yeah in your opinion.

SPEAKER_02: 47:04

Yeah it is it is uh now now I would say so um our cold calling we actually do cold call telemarketing have done cold call telemarketing out of the Philippines and I I just that that recently um my in-year revenue uh that I measured from that still reached a million dollars so that's not dead it's not but if you're spending and and by the way for anybody who's asking that was a bolt on it wasn't like firing people stateside to to to outsource that it it didn't work that way. I wouldn't have done that. So um but like if you're paying a lot of money you're throwing money into the wind. That's why I'm not hiring stateside people to do that work.

SPEAKER_00: 47:58

I kind of can't anyways like that really dried up um it's kind of a casualty of the post-COVID world really right because yeah you automate and you really get more comfortable with being able to handle things and processes more more analog.

SPEAKER_02: 48:14

Yeah well yeah and and like what the response to COVID really like messed up the working world a lot.

SPEAKER_00: 48:22

You know uh of all the guests that I've interviewed that either are small business owners or have been in business for 30 years plus and are are huge executives. So I feel like COVID either benefited or hurt businesses, right? So I've see a lot of small business entrepreneurs who really were able to develop themselves out of being forced to to go through the COVID epidemic. And then some that really really struggled because they were not on the forefront of the digital automation. That's I feel like it's pushed more marketing has pushed more digital because of COVID which can be good and bad. How do you think it's affecting the large like businesses like yours a commercial focusing on commercial industries how did COVID affect U.S.

SPEAKER_02: 49:07

Cinemark sure so um it required us to do a whole lot of interactions that were not face to face right like drones and drone scans and uh things like that satellite scans became much more in use uh during COVID also everybody wanted like in the roofing industry people pay attention to safety a lot because it's a really dangerous industry actually and there can be big lawsuits. However there was an add-on during the COVID age of like we don't just want you to be safe we want you to be uh disease safe right and but to kind of make the jump from and and it was it was like we did well over the the COVID years and there were kind of ancillary issues um that COVID COVID caused like the supply chain problem of course of course in your industry we as a company managed that really well and it com uh at the same time not necessarily because of COVID but um the you know we saw rampant inflation happening all across the board um but definitely in our industry um and we we managed that really well too I would say one of the things that we talked about that kind of has to do with this issue um the other day we had a conversation and and we talked about obstacles right so COVID was just like AI is there's nothing I could do about COVID there's nothing I can do about AI. It does not care about my opinion of how it's gonna work out.

SPEAKER_00: 50:57

That's right and COVID didn't either which is a huge shock to everyone yeah and it's an obstacle yes how but nobody cares about our obstacles they care about how we were either we failed to overcome our obstacles and it becomes then a a morality play a lesson or they care about how we overcame that obstacle so sometimes you have to use a really creative solution sometimes it's just muscling up and powering through what was your process you obviously did well through the pandemic so what do you think attributed to that success or s sustainability through that period?

SPEAKER_02: 51:42

So are are you asking the question about Santa Mark for my role at Centimark?

SPEAKER_00: 51:48

Your role at Centimark completely whether you were proactive whether you pivoted um quickly or whether or not because of the the intention that you had initially with your team and the culture if that really helped you power so the whole start of COVID was really weird for me because I was in a trade show in Hawaii when the worldwide lockdown really started.

SPEAKER_02: 52:12

Wow and so I flew back and it it was it was just surreal because I I flew like uh Las Vegas is the number one destination out of Honolulu. And um so on my plane flying back to to Vegas uh from Hawaii um there were I think there were like three people on my flight and I got into Vegas and the baggage claims weren't working it was a ghost town.

SPEAKER_00: 52:41

Oh I bet that was creepy.

SPEAKER_02: 52:42

And when I got back to DFW um I had one day to make because Texas was locking down the next day. Quickly yes and I had one day to to make everybody able to work from home who never had like I never had work from home.

SPEAKER_00: 53:06

Everyone in IT at every company was screaming.

SPEAKER_02: 53:09

And and so but we did so well we made we made actual bound manuals for my staff we the the cables were marked like a each end of each cable was marked with a different letter or number and it corresponded to the diagrams on the manual. We worked really hard because because the leadership staff of my department like myself and Aliyah at the time we said nothing else exists today. This is the only thing we're gonna do. And so and we boxed them all up with employees names on each box right and it worked so well. We had to manage like there was no time clock anymore because people were working from home. But the point was because it's a fun story to tell how we overcame that challenge and I I'm very proud to say that in the heart of COVID where we were all working from home I didn't have a single I didn't lose a single employee and I didn't have a single employee who left Santa Mark. That is very impressive and kept working.

SPEAKER_00: 54:20

As a company as a whole and as you as a leader within your company it says a lot about the quality and care that you have internally and for the the client the clientele so through COVID with commercial real estate and commercial real estate contracting and the shipment issues you guys sustained all of that as the company as a whole so when coming out of that what did you learn as a marketing director coming out of that pivot change fire drill? What did you learn?

SPEAKER_02: 54:49

So what we were talking about about overcoming challenges I really became focused on that like um so COVID was a big challenge right my job was not to say woe is me and rock back and forth in a fetal position my job was to make wins happen happen in spite of and it was a hard time like talk like all my staff like there was there was no talking to facility managers at their offices because the facility manager wasn't working in an office anymore right it's the fear of the unknown. Yeah so and and everybody's kind of scrambling like you eventually had people saying the new normal right yep and because it was but there wasn't a new normal yet it was it was just stay afloat and like manage. But so that's a lesson that I did as a company I think one of our big lessons that we learned but we did well was to try and think ahead of the problem. So when I I personally was contract contacted by other roofers that I knew just in my personal life who were saying do you guys have material because I can't get material and I couldn't answer that question. I I I don't work in operations. Right. But we did we had whole warehouses that we had pre-staged so weathered that material shortage storm and and we got certain roofing jobs just because other people couldn't do it.

SPEAKER_00: 56:32

Right they couldn't supply the material to do it.

SPEAKER_02: 56:34

So you sourced to those smaller yeah so I I I'm A I'm really proud of the marketing department and and my staff just being really resilient and overcoming our challenges and being willing to change what the message is kind of in the midst of it. I'm proud of our company in doing the same and and really there's really smart people who thought ahead of of problems and of of obstacles of challenges and and planned accordingly and so you have to get s really smart in times like that.

SPEAKER_00: 57:18

I can just feel the pride exuding from you when you talk about how that worked as a company as a whole it's great that your company aligns with your values it's very important especially now that we're more aware of our emotions and feelings and the C-suite executives are as well. So tell me about your greatest hope. You mentioned what your greatest hope and can you tell our other business owners what your hope is and what your insight is on relationship, mentorship and and what shapes your mission and vision, your hope.

SPEAKER_02: 57:49

So personally um like I it's not driven from a fear it's actually driven from the opposite but like someday I'm I heard a comedian talk about like if you're looking at a gravestone you have the date of birth and the date of death and you live your entire life in the dash between them. And so and it sounds morbid right but if as you think about it it's it's actually really poignant. Like we're all gonna die. We're flesh and I I I don't have any allusions to that no nor morbidity about it. It just is what it is. Right. And so but I want to create things that will leave a legacy beyond the dash.

SPEAKER_00: 58:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 58:45

And I want the world to be a better place because I was in it.

SPEAKER_00: 58:50

Do you think you're accomplishing that goal?

SPEAKER_02: 58:53

That that drives me every day drives everything I do. I think that um there are things that I have invested my life in that will have eternal results and I really live my life with that passion with that ethos um and I'm uh from a work perspective I'm really proud of the people that I have invested in because that that team you know someday after me their children are going to have been affected by not just the the job but how I spoke into their lives. I have a kind of a joke that I say that I so in my office I have a little table a like a little conference table in my personal office and every single employee including myself have cried to that table at some point not because I was screaming at them or or saying mean things it's because they've uh sat there and said you know I'm just really dealing with this In my life right now. You touch them on a deeper level. Because they know they have the space to do that. That I'm I'm not the counselor in chief, but they know that I care for them as people, not just functionaries. And so that is part of that leaving a legacy, right? And also the the sales staff at my company know that I'm not just in it for um being their sales goal, that I really want them to succeed in their role. So last year, for instance, I I had a black belt test in in uh martial art that I practice. And um uh one of my sales staff from Houston came up and he sat and watched that and cheered me on for nine and a half hours.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:02

Wow.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:04

That like I was talking to him yesterday actually, and I would say, like, someday when I'm on my deathbed, I will remember that as like one of the top ten, because he didn't have to do that. There's no benefit to him. He's not gonna get more sales, more marketing time out of me. He did that because he cared about me. And he cares about me partly because I he knows that I care about him. And that means a lot. Those relationships that have been built mean a lot and they mean legacy. They mean that what you're doing has a value that exists beyond just the little bubble you're in today, right?

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:48

And that's so wonderful. So thank you for sharing that because I would ask everyone who's listening or or has you know interacted with us to really sit there and take a thought about the best moment, the most appreciative moment you feel. And it it in my mind, as you were saying that, the quality and people showing up or driving three hours to be with me at a certain event, even if it was pointless, it stays with you. And focusing on those people, I feel like it really is a success for everyone, whether you're working in a company or you own a company. Would you s agree?

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:22

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely, like, yeah, just the life would be Mother Teresa once said, if it's hard to get everybody to want to hug, but if half the world was wanting to hug the other half of the world, then everybody would be getting a hug. And she was right, like it in whatever role you're in, if you just try and make the world a little bit better of a place because you were in it, then um what you're building will outlast you and as you said, your little bubble.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:57

Right. It's like sand in a jar, right? You you keep filling it. You have to. Thank you so much for sharing that. I I think some of the the things you've learned in your career journey, not just with Cinemark, is really insightful for some of our business owners and our executives that are listening to the show because culture is important. And I truly feel like you've paved the way for Cinemark to just be more successful each and every day. Can you tell us how um anyone that's listening can learn more about what all services you offer or what the company does? Of course. Where can they reach you?

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:31

Do you have socials? So um the the the company has all of that and uh like everybody knows how to Google, but we're not Cinemark, we're not a movie company. We're Santa's clear C-E-N-T-I-M-A-R-K dot com is our website. Okay. Um that's where they can go and they can act, they can find access to what we do, how we do it, et cetera, et cetera. If they want to um they they want to uh connect with me personally, um my email is ryan.shin at centimark.com. Um so and they can they can find me there.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:09

Um I'll add those links to the bottom of the description on this.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:12

And I'm happy to help them with any question they have because I want to make them successful too. Now, I do have to be a little bit clear in like I'm not gonna spend eight hours of my work day helping somebody, but if I can help somebody, uh I I'm definitely willing to talk with them on my own time or however it works technically.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:33

See if you can mutually benefit each other, right? What whatever industry you're in, I've I've been in a lot of different energies from government to sales marketing. I've been in a plumbing industry as well. And what you those little nuggets you pick up along the way, you can just share, just share them with anyone else. Well, thank you. Is there anything else that you'd like our audience to know before we end the show today?

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:55

Um, I would say that if you're listening, I'm I'm I'm very happy that you're here. And I hope you learned something from me, from story, and from this podcast. So thank you for your time.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:07

Thank you, Ryan. And to all of our listeners out there, we'll see you next time on Market It with Atma.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:13

Bye.